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One thing that drives me mad in Britain today is the blame culture, a serious lack of personal responsibility and an obsession with the phrase "It's not my fault". In my opinion this is particularly directed toward foreigners regarding the perceived unavailability of any decent jobs.
I am not even standing up for my own people here, I am a white working class male born and raised in the North East, but the bottom line is that the working class in the UK have badly let themselves down and comfort themselves by blaming everyone else. I hear it all the time "No one round here can get a job because of all these foreigners", "the whole country is overrun by asylum seekers".
This is absolutely rubbish, because if these people were really prepared to get up and go to work, then they could most likely find some kind of employment. It's far too easy to use these people as a poster child for the countries problems.
there are no good jobs because the foreigners have taken them all...
I see a lot of hard working immigrant families in Britain, people who have tried very hard to set up businesses, get jobs and make lives for themselves, meanwhile a portion of the underclass indigenous population sit in their council houses paid for by the taxpayer watching mind numbing TV telling themselves that there are no good jobs because the foreigners have taken them all. These people complain they have no money, but they can still afford 20 Lambert & Butler and a 40 inch plasma TV.
We need to have more of a "can do" mentality, looking at improving the lives of our children through good parenting and education. Unfortunately, some working class in England today are more interested in sitting around watching X factor and moaning about the problems the country has that are not their fault instead of educating and bettering themselves. Apathy is embraced as if its a virtue and we need a new mentality.
By: Musicjunkie
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Well they are not orphans. Their parents will still try and help their children get onto the property ladder with their pension pot. It's just that some parents are more able than others.
07/11/14 Dead and Buried
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Britain is a land of economic orphans. An economic orphan is a young person who has been abandoned economically by the nation, and by his parents and family. These are young people who cannot make a proper start in life, who cannot find a job which pays them a living wage, who cannot get married or start families, who cannot settle down, cannot find affordable homes and whose parents cannot afford to give them an full economic start in life with a deposit on a house or home. This is a lost generation. The economic orphans are zombies living from hand to mouth, burdened by the debts of higher education, by employers who exploit them as living slaves, making them work for no wages at all, claiming that they are only "trainees". These are young people who are finding that the paid work that they could do is being taken from them by immigrants from eastern europe who undercut their potential wages. They cannot even get started. They have been forgotten. Their future is ruined. The nation doesn't give a damn about them. All the political parties have ignored them. They will become a criminal underclass.
07/11/14 Britain, The Economic Orphanage
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I have and know it as a fact: large numbers of immigrants from eastern europe are not paying their taxes when they come here. If they are working as installers or builders in the building and fitting trades, which a huge number are, they are demanding from their customers payments in cash so that they don't have to pay VAT. This is the black economy. Large British companies with whom these workers are associated with as private contractors encourage them to do this to undercut their competitors. If these workers paid their taxes properly, then this country would more than have the £1.7 billion ready to pay the EU. Instead they are undercutting British wages by breaking the law. If they paid their taxes properly they would be truly entitled to the benefits this country offers. But if they are here as tax avoiders, then they are no better than criminals who should be sent home.
06/11/14 The EU is Corrupt and Full of Crooks
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You both make very good points and both confirm what I said about this issue having many factors to consider.
On a personal basis I should let you know that a pet hate of mine is sweeping generalisations ie. All immigrants are scroungers, all Romanians are criminals, all cyclists are lunatics etc. etc. I find such things to be the lowest form of debate. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that they are not debate, they are an embarrassment to the poster and they contribute nothing to an adult discussion. So when I see a post stating something like "All these scumbags" my first reaction is to think "What a pr*tt". I'm afraid that most of Bulldog's mini rants have that effect on me.
I'm quite a balanced person and I like to see balance in a debate. I can usually see both viewpoints even if I only agree with one of them. I'm a bit like that with films too. As soon as something happens in a film that couldn't in real life I tend to switch off (unless of course it is meant to be a fantasy film).
I can see the issues later down the line with mass immigration but to say they're not currently contributing is wrong.
It's also worth remembering that students at university, UCL included, do not count in immigration figures. They're not here as immigrants as they have short term visas. You could argue that they are directly contributing as they come here, spend money on courses and at local businesses. They don't generally claim benefits as they're mostly in student accommodation etc. So I don't really think they have much to gain from this report. Their ability to attract students is not linked to European immigration.
It's one hell of a mixing pot this immigration business. I don't know how we deal with it as a country but I'm certain that withdrawing from the EU is the wrong thing to do.
06/11/14 Samson (Delilah's too busy to post)
On a personal basis I should let you know that a pet hate of mine is sweeping generalisations ie. All immigrants are scroungers, all Romanians are criminals, all cyclists are lunatics etc. etc. I find such things to be the lowest form of debate. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that they are not debate, they are an embarrassment to the poster and they contribute nothing to an adult discussion. So when I see a post stating something like "All these scumbags" my first reaction is to think "What a pr*tt". I'm afraid that most of Bulldog's mini rants have that effect on me.
I'm quite a balanced person and I like to see balance in a debate. I can usually see both viewpoints even if I only agree with one of them. I'm a bit like that with films too. As soon as something happens in a film that couldn't in real life I tend to switch off (unless of course it is meant to be a fantasy film).
I can see the issues later down the line with mass immigration but to say they're not currently contributing is wrong.
It's also worth remembering that students at university, UCL included, do not count in immigration figures. They're not here as immigrants as they have short term visas. You could argue that they are directly contributing as they come here, spend money on courses and at local businesses. They don't generally claim benefits as they're mostly in student accommodation etc. So I don't really think they have much to gain from this report. Their ability to attract students is not linked to European immigration.
It's one hell of a mixing pot this immigration business. I don't know how we deal with it as a country but I'm certain that withdrawing from the EU is the wrong thing to do.
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UCL? University College London? Mmmm . . . . . don't they have a particular interest in ensuring a ready supply of immigrant students?
Such is my disconnect and disillusionment with the London elite, together with the fact that London has massive numbers of immigrants, that I find myself feeling a lack of trust with any report that comes out of London on this issue. Just a 'feeling', I'm not particularly arguing for much of a rational basis, save what I've just said.
Petra makes some good points, particularly that massive numbers of young immigrants today may well become a burden for the future.
I think Bulldog should 'play a bit more clever' and tone down his posts a little. The reference to 'ugly women' in his last post immediately strikes of se x ism - something I particularly dislike.
06/11/14 miserablemoaninggit
Such is my disconnect and disillusionment with the London elite, together with the fact that London has massive numbers of immigrants, that I find myself feeling a lack of trust with any report that comes out of London on this issue. Just a 'feeling', I'm not particularly arguing for much of a rational basis, save what I've just said.
Petra makes some good points, particularly that massive numbers of young immigrants today may well become a burden for the future.
I think Bulldog should 'play a bit more clever' and tone down his posts a little. The reference to 'ugly women' in his last post immediately strikes of se x ism - something I particularly dislike.
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Forgive me for reposting my own post but it was clearly in the wrong place before and I wanted to contribute to the discussion.
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Most EU migrants are young and come here to work so they will naturally be paying tax into the economy and be taking less in direct benefits like JSA, Income Support and Housing Benefit.
However, they are also having large numbers of children; did the figures quoted by the papers include the costs of maternity care, child allowance, help with child day care costs and the considerable cost of free education for their children?
If they stay in this country, these migrants will retire and probably claim pensions (which they will have paid for), pension credit, help with council tax and rent, and be needing medical care the same as older British people.
We are always being told that we need these workers to pay for the pension of the current crop of older people but what happens when they get older? How many millions of new migrants will be needed to "support" them. We need to find better solutions to the challenges of ageing than constantly expanding our population beyond what the infrastructure and environment can tolerate.
The social costs of mass immigration are a whole other story and always ignored by government.
06/11/14 Petra
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Most EU migrants are young and come here to work so they will naturally be paying tax into the economy and be taking less in direct benefits like JSA, Income Support and Housing Benefit.
However, they are also having large numbers of children; did the figures quoted by the papers include the costs of maternity care, child allowance, help with child day care costs and the considerable cost of free education for their children?
If they stay in this country, these migrants will retire and probably claim pensions (which they will have paid for), pension credit, help with council tax and rent, and be needing medical care the same as older British people.
We are always being told that we need these workers to pay for the pension of the current crop of older people but what happens when they get older? How many millions of new migrants will be needed to "support" them. We need to find better solutions to the challenges of ageing than constantly expanding our population beyond what the infrastructure and environment can tolerate.
The social costs of mass immigration are a whole other story and always ignored by government.
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MMG...As you know I have said in the past that there are many factors to consider and I mostly agree with your post.
What the report does do though is dispel the myth that these people do not contribute in any way. They clearly do.
Bulldogs comments, whilst I understand the frustration and sentiment behind them usually result in him giving the impression that he is a racist xenophobe. I'm sure he isn't (maybe he would like to confirm either way) but his short aggressive soundbites do him no credit.
06/11/14 Samson (Delilah's too busy to post)
What the report does do though is dispel the myth that these people do not contribute in any way. They clearly do.
Bulldogs comments, whilst I understand the frustration and sentiment behind them usually result in him giving the impression that he is a racist xenophobe. I'm sure he isn't (maybe he would like to confirm either way) but his short aggressive soundbites do him no credit.
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The report was released yesterday by UCL. I work in the same building as them (office next door) and can confirm that it is a new report based on current figures.
06/11/14 Samson (Delilah's too busy to post)
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I believe the report was somewhat dated and does not take into account the doubling of the levels of immigration into the UK in the last 18 months or so. Furthermore, any report that merely emphasizes the economic benefits does not take into account other, somewhat less easily quantifiable impacts upon UK society. Also, £20 billion equates to £1 per citizen and pales into insignificance when considering packed GP surgeries, demand for school places, pressure on hospitals, transport, the environment etc etc.
Fundamentally, the UK people should have been asked if they wanted such unprecedented levels of immigration over such a short period of time. The refusal of governments - Labour and Tory - to give the people a referendum on EU membership has now led to the situation that such membership is inextricably linked to the issue of immigration.
I was far too young to have a vote to join the Common Market as it was then called, and therefore have never had any real say in my country's membership of the EU, and the subsequent transfer of sovereign power to Brussels. I resent that fact! I resent it greatly!
It is shameful that the Labour Party is refusing a referendum. They betrayed the working-class people in opening up the immigration floodgates to people from both outside and within the EU (apparently non-EU migrants have cost the country well over £100 billion), thereby driving down wages because of over-supply of workers. I was listening to Radio 4 the other day and a driver of a 40-ton lorry driver is being paid just £7.90 per hour. When he and his colleagues went to the boss to ask for a pay rise, the boss showed them emails he had received from employment agencies in Poland, Romania etc offering drivers for a cheaper rate.
Bulldog is, in his own way, expressing the frustration, anxiety and anger of many ordinary working people. I don't always agree on how he expresses himself, but I understand where he is coming from, so to speak.
06/11/14 miserablemoaninggit
Fundamentally, the UK people should have been asked if they wanted such unprecedented levels of immigration over such a short period of time. The refusal of governments - Labour and Tory - to give the people a referendum on EU membership has now led to the situation that such membership is inextricably linked to the issue of immigration.
I was far too young to have a vote to join the Common Market as it was then called, and therefore have never had any real say in my country's membership of the EU, and the subsequent transfer of sovereign power to Brussels. I resent that fact! I resent it greatly!
It is shameful that the Labour Party is refusing a referendum. They betrayed the working-class people in opening up the immigration floodgates to people from both outside and within the EU (apparently non-EU migrants have cost the country well over £100 billion), thereby driving down wages because of over-supply of workers. I was listening to Radio 4 the other day and a driver of a 40-ton lorry driver is being paid just £7.90 per hour. When he and his colleagues went to the boss to ask for a pay rise, the boss showed them emails he had received from employment agencies in Poland, Romania etc offering drivers for a cheaper rate.
Bulldog is, in his own way, expressing the frustration, anxiety and anger of many ordinary working people. I don't always agree on how he expresses himself, but I understand where he is coming from, so to speak.
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Bulldog,
Are you aware that an independent report yesterday stated that the UK Treasury receives more tax from migrant EU nationals than it pays out in benefits to them?
Whilst there are without question a bad bunch among them you have to accept that they are not all like that. It would appear that many of them have jobs and pay tax.
100k to invest? that would seem unreasonable by any standards. How many people do you know that have 100k to invest? Do you? I don't!
06/11/14 Samson (Delilah's too busy to post)
Are you aware that an independent report yesterday stated that the UK Treasury receives more tax from migrant EU nationals than it pays out in benefits to them?
Whilst there are without question a bad bunch among them you have to accept that they are not all like that. It would appear that many of them have jobs and pay tax.
100k to invest? that would seem unreasonable by any standards. How many people do you know that have 100k to invest? Do you? I don't!
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WOW
Eastern Europeans paid into this system ! 10% maybe the rich Russian buying in London maybe !
Not the Romanian con artists living on the benefits system , Polish ID fraudsters , Albanian people smugglers !
Please send these scum bags home , 100k to invest or we don't want you here with your ugly women ,home time and vote ukip
05/11/14 Bulldog
Eastern Europeans paid into this system ! 10% maybe the rich Russian buying in London maybe !
Not the Romanian con artists living on the benefits system , Polish ID fraudsters , Albanian people smugglers !
Please send these scum bags home , 100k to invest or we don't want you here with your ugly women ,home time and vote ukip
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And in the respect of physical space he is right. I've said so on here before (although nobody grasped that was what I was saying). There is plenty of 'space'.
It isn't a case of physical space though, it is a case of the infrastructure not being able to support the demand put upon it. Public services such as schools and hospitals are currently over subscribed. The Police, local government, transportation etc. are all under increasing pressure and it is near to breaking point in that respect. Physical space however is not an issue. There is plenty of open ground across the country where houses could be built. Large parts of Yorkshire for example are moorland and the south downs are not exactly crammed. We could actually accommodate the world's population on this little island. The question is not "can we?" It is "Why should we?"
What people need to be able to separate is the physical ability to take more immigration and the strain it is putting on the current level of resources. Of course it is possible to increase those resources but that can only realistically be done through higher taxation and nobody wants that.
What we have to do in the UK is manage the influx of immigrants more efficiently. If they're coming here to work and contribute to society by taxation, community involvement and complimenting our local skills base then it is difficult to have an issue with it. Unfortunately that does not appear to be the case with many immigrants.
I don't think the Tories went far enough when they put a ban on claiming benefit for three months. It should have been at least two years from the date of entry unless the person is able to demonstrate that they worked for a long period before becoming unemployed. It is easy for somebody to come here with enough funds to sustain themselves for three months, two years is a whole different board game. The practice of claiming benefit for non residential family members should also be stopped.
Until such time as the UK stops being an easy option, and until we stand up as a nation and tell the rest of the world "No more, the game is over", it will continue in it's current form. Pulling out of Europe entirely though is not the answer. That's a knee-jerk reaction and a foolish solution. I firmly believe it would cause more problems than it solves. Issues within the UK (and for that matter Europe) run much deeper than immigration alone. We cannot afford to get sucked into a single arena of debate which is where some people want us to be. You simply cannot elect any administration on the basis of a single policy. It has to be more intelligent than that.
28/10/14 Samson (Delilah's too busy to post)
It isn't a case of physical space though, it is a case of the infrastructure not being able to support the demand put upon it. Public services such as schools and hospitals are currently over subscribed. The Police, local government, transportation etc. are all under increasing pressure and it is near to breaking point in that respect. Physical space however is not an issue. There is plenty of open ground across the country where houses could be built. Large parts of Yorkshire for example are moorland and the south downs are not exactly crammed. We could actually accommodate the world's population on this little island. The question is not "can we?" It is "Why should we?"
What people need to be able to separate is the physical ability to take more immigration and the strain it is putting on the current level of resources. Of course it is possible to increase those resources but that can only realistically be done through higher taxation and nobody wants that.
What we have to do in the UK is manage the influx of immigrants more efficiently. If they're coming here to work and contribute to society by taxation, community involvement and complimenting our local skills base then it is difficult to have an issue with it. Unfortunately that does not appear to be the case with many immigrants.
I don't think the Tories went far enough when they put a ban on claiming benefit for three months. It should have been at least two years from the date of entry unless the person is able to demonstrate that they worked for a long period before becoming unemployed. It is easy for somebody to come here with enough funds to sustain themselves for three months, two years is a whole different board game. The practice of claiming benefit for non residential family members should also be stopped.
Until such time as the UK stops being an easy option, and until we stand up as a nation and tell the rest of the world "No more, the game is over", it will continue in it's current form. Pulling out of Europe entirely though is not the answer. That's a knee-jerk reaction and a foolish solution. I firmly believe it would cause more problems than it solves. Issues within the UK (and for that matter Europe) run much deeper than immigration alone. We cannot afford to get sucked into a single arena of debate which is where some people want us to be. You simply cannot elect any administration on the basis of a single policy. It has to be more intelligent than that.
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David Blunkett has jumped on the Micheal Fallon bandwagon, he AGREES with him!
Just another two faced politician.
QUOTE: "There is "no obvious limit" to the number of immigrants who could settle in the UK, Home Secretary David Blunkett said.
He said he did not believe there was a maximum population which could be housed in the country,"
2004, during Labours term in office
28/10/14 Stalag14
Just another two faced politician.
QUOTE: "There is "no obvious limit" to the number of immigrants who could settle in the UK, Home Secretary David Blunkett said.
He said he did not believe there was a maximum population which could be housed in the country,"
2004, during Labours term in office
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I wonder just how many people agree with Micheal Fallon ( Tory MP) when saying "Immigrants are swamping our towns".
Answer:The people of Boston-Lincolnshire
The usual suspects are frothing at the mouth that someone actually speaks their mind about immigration.
Why did he backtrack on his statement?
Leaned on?
Liberals?
Answer: the Loony Left who would let ANYONE enter this country.
I will say it again, WE ARE FULL UP.
27/10/14 Stalag14
Answer:The people of Boston-Lincolnshire
The usual suspects are frothing at the mouth that someone actually speaks their mind about immigration.
Why did he backtrack on his statement?
Leaned on?
Liberals?
Answer: the Loony Left who would let ANYONE enter this country.
I will say it again, WE ARE FULL UP.
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Mr bird