Public sector strikes holding the country to ransom

Grumpyoldwoman, as someone who generally disagreed with Scholar, I actually fully agree with your post. However, there is a distinction between Scholar's disparaging remarks about public sector workers generally and the need for increased efficiency. I've repeatedly stated that I'm all for reducing waste and increasing efficiency, and of course, this would include getting rid of the politically correct none jobs. I would also support not paying for translators for newly arrived immigrants (the level of immigration at a time of great economic strain is still - crazily! - far too high!).

However, there clearly are very important public sector jobs, often relatively low-paid and damaged by constant political interference by inept governments. Doctors, nurses, teachers, care workers, civil servants, local government employees - many of them do absolutely essential jobs that greatly benefits the welfare society.

Yes, there are always some "rotten apples" but I certainly argue that overall we get value for money from these essential jobs - as a distinct point from the need to cut waste and increase efficiency.

Just spotted the quotation marks I didn't close in paragraph 4. I'd swear some typos are invisible until after you've posted the comment!

I've been following this gripe with interest and must admit I'm firmly on Scholar's side. I do realise that many public sector workers are absolutely essential but also many are not.

I had heard what Freddie said, about ruling the Empire with 30,000 civil servants. We may not have had the NHS then, but surely they could manage with the same number of "managers" as those who administered the Empire! Allowing for 30,000 to just run the country instead of an entire Empire, and adding the same for the welfare state and again for education you've still only got 120,000!

My local doctor's surgery has as many "administration" staff as medical. Some of them are part time, but then some of the medical staff are as well. This is clearly in part due to the new contract they were awarded by Labour as mentioned by Scholar. If we need a doctor out of hours we are out of luck! There is a number to ring but there is only one doctor on hand so he or she cannot leave their post to actually visit anyone, as then the service would be left without a doctor at all. So, you have a choice between an ambulance with paramedics or "call your local surgery when they open". And of course none of them know you or anything about your conditions.

I've just googled "politically correct non-jobs and found an article from late 2007 stating that during that year Thurrock Council in Essex advertised for a "Community Empowerment Network Programme Manager". (Maybe they gave the job to the first applicant who could define it!) Why on earth do we need to be paying taxes for posts like that?

We also pay out for translators for people who have come to live here but can't be bothered to learn the language. I'm sure that if any of us went to live in one of their countries and expected to be given the same accomodation we would be laughed at.

We do really need to be manufacturing more; as I've said before, sack all those doing the politically correct non-jobs and put them to work in factories to do something useful!

miserablemoaninggit, my sentiments entirely. Lets us hope that this country rides the storm and hope for better times for everyone. (I am still right though) Goodwill to all.

Scholar, have I even once questioned your right to give your opinion? I think not. I'm actually quite enjoying this debate, and would much rather have it with someone like you who has a strong opinion, and expresses it strongly and with interest, then go down the road of a 'treading on eggshells approach', so wary and sensitive to the possibility of being accused of bullying.

As for your demand for proof, then please see my previous posting. Giving such proof is impossible - public sector jobs are not like manufacturing in which someone's efficiency at putting together a car component can, I imagine, be much more easily assessed.

Finally Scholar, there is no need to tell me to relax, to chill out, to enjoy myself. Why should these postings (and our mutual debate) be regarded as distinct from enjoyable? I doubt that either of us would bother to post if we didn't gain some enjoyment out of it.

Freddie, I think it is very difficult to quantify. The very nature of many public sector jobs means that a 'time and motion' approach to assessing efficiency simply does not work. We all perhaps have heard of the horrendous difficulty faced by lowly-paid care workers, who have a very inflexible timings when dealing with clients. A visit to someone housebound, to dress someone, prepare breakfast etc might be given 15 minutes or so. Ridiculous. We all know that a properly done caring job would have much more flexibility, allow for that human touch, giving time to treat people as individuals with respect. Of course, this might then be deemed inefficient, resulting in the production of a statistic as 'evidence' that it is so.

How can you really judge the efficiency of a teacher, for example? By the results? Not even that. A teacher can absolutely excel at teaching to the test, preparing a student for an examination paper (with lots and lots of practice on past examination papers), but whilst actually giving very little educational value. Education is producing a nation of automatons, bland individuals who actually cannot think for themselves. But, going down the statistical route, it would all be based upon results.

Again, very many public sector jobs cannot easily be judged as inefficient, and in many cases we should trust the professionalism of doctors, nurses, teachers, care workers and others. Unfortunately, constant meddling by idiotic governments have completely undermined their professionalism, to the extent that the professions have lost confidence in their own abilities, and actually think that they should be judged against some statistical basis. Crazy!

A 100 years ago our country was actually much simpler, despite the Empire. There was no national health service, no welfare state, no universal education (not sure about the dates for this).

miserablemoaninggit. Do you want me to believe that Boblet is S**t stirring or does he genuinely feel that your dscription of me is not justified? Irrespective, your latest posting gives me a better insight into how you think about the Public Sector. Would I be right or not in assuming that yourself and/or members of your family are employed in the Public Sector. If this is so, then I could understand your staunch defence of same.....I probably would too. Never the less I have yet to be convinced that the Public/Civil Service in it's entirety is up to the mark. I have seen at first hand the neglect that takes place in a city hospital......what I saw on several occasions was shocking. With regards to Firemen, it was from a friend of mine that I learnt that if the Fire Service is called out to a "Secondry" fire, ie: the fire reignites because they neglected to dampen down properly, it goes on record as "Arson Suspected but not proven"....to me that stinks. I could give other examples of why I have formed my opinions....I know...don't tar everyone with the same brush, but are you getting my point. I also have to take note of what is reported in the media, or am I not to believe anything that highlights problems in the Public Sector. You became angry at my rant, but as I have said in my earlier posting, if you had given any proof that the Public Sector is giving value for money then I would have had to retract my previous postings. Finally miserablemoaninggit, as much as we all have varying opinions of what is right or wrong with the system, we do live in a democracy and we are entitled our to own views(even if I think you're wrong) and I am always right. Relax and enjoy your life as much as you can.

I don't think we get good value for money from the majority of the public sector. I would agree that there are some areas that perform well and some professions that have dedicated staff (the nurses and the armed forces come to mind). What bothers me is that 100 years or so ago we ruled a third of the world with roughly 30,000 civil servants. These days we just have our own country to worry about and can't get it right with upward of 400,000 of them!

Boblet, shame on you. A prime example of someone watching from the sidelines engaging in what is often described as "s**t stirring". If you really think that I am trying to 'bully' scholar, then the vast majority of people on the Weekly Gripe need to stop posting. Such a extreme understanding of the term would mean that all of us will fall fall of the 'Boblet bully test'.

To be frank, your comment Boblet is one of the most pathetic that I've ever read on The Weekly Gripe. Oops! That may be bullying!

Scholar, as I've stated previously, I'm all for cutting waste and increasing efficiency. Furthermore, I'm certainly not one who would defend the actions of the previous Labour governments. Prior to Tony Blair, I was a lifelong Labour party supporter, but now I would not dream of voting for that party - or any of the main parties for that matter! - again!

As for your 'feeling' regarding the majority of the country not wanting to fund inefficient public services, well of course, if we accept the premise that public services are simply inefficient and not giving value for money, then I would suggest that your feeling is almost certainly a fact. However, whilst there is no doubt some inefficiency, I would argue that the public services generally give excellent value for money and that the employees are dedicated to their jobs, despite the constant interference of successive governments. Public services have been subject to wave after wave of efficiency drives, cost-cutting, meddling, and the downright stupidity of idiotic politicians.

As for your request that I 'chill out'. Well, I can hardly do so in the face of the unfounded, extreme attack on public employees by an engineer who has spent all of his working life in manufacturing, and therefore almost certainly knows very little about working in public services. I would not dream of suggesting that a manufacturer of car components is inefficient, a waste, bloated, parasitic etc. Why not? Because I know nothing about the manufacture of car components.

To Boblet. I do genuinely appreciate where you are coming from, but as I mentioned in my last post, miserablemoaninggit only chose to use that description of me because he had lost the argument, well he had in my opinion anyway. He could have chosen to destroy my argument and or views by giving facts rather than using disparaging remarks. He could have given me facts of how efficient and cost effective the public sector is, but he chose not to. If he had, I would have retracted whatever I have said about the Public Sector, I am therefore not the least perturbed by his rant against my views, which are held by the majority. Wish you well Boblet.

Oh Boblet, you have a very strange idea of what constitutes bullying!

To those posters who try to define internet bulling.

"Oh dear! Scholar, a proud, cynical, clearly somewhat embittered man"

That statment to Scholar is a perfect example of internet bullying.

miserablemoaninggit. Whilst my posting may have been sweeping, if you take note of all my comments you will see. (1) NHS workers...."many do give a good service". (2) Refuse collectors and Sewage workers, whatever time some may waste, "they are more essential" than any of the parasitic, corrupt idlers that are employed in local council offices. (3) Police come to mind. I would not have their job for any amount of money. (4) Labour virtually doubled GPs pay and cut their working hours. (Fact)
(5) Labour poured tens of billions of pounds extra into the NHS, but most of it went on creating more jobs. (Fact) Have you read the recent reports by GPs concerning the poor care in the hospitals?. Regarding my single reference to Stafford Hospital, if you had kept up with the news over this last few years you would have read of many hospitals where patients are dying needlessly. There are approx. 1.43 million employed in the NHS of which 18% are none medical staff, 45'000+ of those are paper handling managers on extremely good pay, would you not call that waste.
With regard to my being proud, embittered & cynical, I think you are laying these comments at me because you have lost the argument. Do you condemn all those in this country whose views differ from your own, it seems that you do. I have a feeling that you know that the majority in this country have had enough of financing the public and civil service and not getting value for money and that the tide is turning. From your comments, I am in no doubt that it is you that is embittered and angry because you know whats coming.....this country is about to see great hardship and the first to go will be those idlers in the public and civil service. Why don't you stop being a "miserable moaning git" and "chill out", as the young ones say. Best regards from a "very working class bloke".

Oh dear! Scholar, a proud, cynical, clearly somewhat embittered man. You condemn NHS public workers with reference to one hospital - Stafford. Your reference to the employment of pen pushers, as you call them, is really a separate point concerning the waste within public services. I'm all for getting rid of waste and increasing efficiency.

Your reference to 'none jobs' again is a new point that your previous postings did not really focus on, as far as I could see. I note in your previous posts that you rage against teachers, refuse collectors, nurses, doctors - none of which are 'none jobs'.

As for teachers, they are expected to fully compensate for the very poor levels of parenting in this country, courtesy largely of the welfare state, and it is an impossible task. Many teachers deserve a medal for each day that they survive in some of the horrendous state schools in this country, expected to teach children who are effectively neglected by parents, and to teach rubbish qualifications as a result of political interference.

I note that you retired on a very good private pension. Just what many of the public sector workers want to have - although proportionately speaking I suspect that the majority of them will be on far less than you. Unless, of course, you wish to advocate an equality of misery that many of those in the private sector seem to desire - having fallen for the government's rhetoric about public sector workers.

It seems to me that you are a very working class bloke who cannot appreciate that there are very worthwhile jobs out there, many of them in the public sector, that don't involve lifting up a spanner, or oiling a chain, or building another car component. In your case, your pseudonym fails to sum you up. Have a very pleasant day indeed.

To Boblet. Production Engineering. Producing tooling for manufacturing components used in the car, marine and machine tool industry. Something which I found to be a very satisfying, though stressful at times.

Scholar. Just out of curiosity, what line of engineering where you in?

To miserablemoaninggit. I feel that I have the right to criticise those that are employed to give good service, which many do not(read the reports. Stafford Hospital was condemned for their neglect...estimated 1400 patients died through neglect.) You only have to look at the poor attendance record of many employed by local councils. Further, when labour pumped tens of billions more into the NHS, what happened, they used most of that money to increase GPs pay for less hours and employed hundreds of thousand more personnel (yes, hundreds of thousands) of Pen Pushers, instead of spending that money on patient care. The UK has a bloated public sector of which many are being paid for doing none jobs. With regard to my being angry, I have the right to be angry when I see the waste.
Too many children are leaving school as semi illiterates. It is on record that many teachers are not even qualified to teach english or maths, but they are being paid to do so. Yes the system is wrong, never the less, it is because of these things that I am angry.
What you and your ilk have failed to recognise is that this country cannot afford to have millions employed that are a drain on our economy. (Look at Greece). Jealous I am not, I chose to work in the private because I wanted a worthwhile future. With regard to my bettering myself, you slipped up on that one. I served a 6 year indentured apprenticeship, went to college and aquired skills and knowledge in engineering which enabled me to become a works manager for 35 years. Because of that I retired on a very good private pension and live a comfortable life free from debt. Regarding my becoming more and more reliant on public sector workers in my twilight years.....whatever needs I may or may not have for the public sector, I have paid and I am still paying for it, too much in fact....Income tax, rates etc.
"miserablemoaninggit", my views are held by the majority in this country, who are having to pay through the nose and getting very little in return. I suspect your nickname just about sums you up. (You would'nt by chance be a Traffic Warden, would you.) Have a Nice Day.

Sorry but that doesn't wash. you clearly stated 'those that had the good sense to better themselves'. better than what exactly?

Freddie, I admire your ability to take a comment out of context. The comment that you quoted was relative to 'Scholar's' "50 years in manufacturing" and the very strong suggestion that this has served to fuel a level of resentment against public sector workers, further suggesting jealousy, perhaps regret, at not doing better for himself.

I do not actually know what "50 years in manufacturing" actually means in his case, but the fact that he is so willing to assert idiotic, generalised rubbish leads me to speculate that it was not an entirely happy affair.

We must not allow the government and the elite in society (desperate to maintain their stranglehold on the concentration of wealth in this country) to pit public sector workers against private sector workers. At the end of the day, workers are workers, and in both sectors the vast majority of us work damn hard and, in many cases, for far too little pay, resulting in the need for state welfare benefits. We should stand together!

Scholar is guilty of allowing himself to be too easily controlled and willing to come out with his vitriolic, quite stupid comments. 'We Love Stalin' is no better. To equate UK public sector workers with communist Russia is ridiculous.

God help the working class. We are our own worst enemy! No wonder the education system is a load of teaching to the test, prescriptive rubbish. The government does not want a system that produces 'thinkers', rather the automatons that it currently produces.

'The public sector has never been at the heart of progress and innovation.'
Too true
You only have to look at Communist controlled Russia or East Germany, before the collapse,to see the ultimate it Public Sector Employment.